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Life Insurance Corporation of India (LIC) IPO Message Board (Page 43)

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989. Gppatel |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 4:36:35 PM
Top Contributor Top Contributor (300+ Posts, 200+ Likes)
Full force applied lic ipo
Policy Holders 1 applications 14 lot
Retail 22 applications 1 lot
988. kamalesh |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 4:28:08 PM
Skip this IPO
987. Jay R.D |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 4:28:02 PM
AGAIN POSTING BELOW MESSAGE FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL THE MEMBERS. DO READ BELOW MESSAGE BEFORE AVOIDING / APPLYING IN LIC IPO:

How to evaluate LIC IPO and other insurance companies?

Based on the valuation of its initial public offering (IPO), Life Insurance Corporation of India (LIC) is likely to be among the top three or five companies by market capitalisation after its listing, worth around $80 to $100 billion.

Market capitalisation is the valuation of a company by Mr Market at any point of time, depending on the prevailing investor sentiment for the overall equity market, the specific sector or industry and the specific entity.

A scientific investor can independently think about the actual value of the company on an objective basis and then compare it with its current market value.

If the actual or intrinsic value of the company is much higher than its prevailing market value, the investor can consider buying shares in it; when the intrinsic value is lower than market value, one can consider selling the stock and taking profit.

The question is this: how does one value life insurance companies?

The components of value are as follows:

Real estate held

Value of other non-operating assets

Value of existing business

Value of future business

According to various sources of information, LIC has thousands of buildings across cities. The value of these assets could be in lakhs of crore but needs to be determined on the basis of specifics.

The main component of value is the value of existing business. This is the primary component in the embedded value calculation and is estimated at nearly Rs 5.4 lakh crore.

On top of this one can add the value of future business depending on the rate of growth. Keep in mind that India is a highly underpenetrated market as far as life insurance is concerned.

Growth can go on for decades. Estimates for the insurance industry's growth are in the range of 13-15% for the next five years or so. It is likely that LIC grows slower than the industry, but still close to double digits or high single digit.

What is the concept of embedded value?

Due to the long-term mutual commitment of the customer and life insurers to each other, life insurance business is very different from any other business. And Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP) do not reveal the true economics of the business, so the use of traditional ratios like Price-to-Earnings or Price-to-Book Value does not make sense. On these traditional valuation metrics, life insurance companies would always look overvalued.

For example, currently, listed life insurance companies are trading at PE ratios ranging from 70 to 100. At the upper end of its IPO price band, LIC would trade at nearly 200.

The correct way to value a life insurance player is to value the committed business from each policyholder over the lifetime. For example, an individual policyholder will pay a fixed premium for the next 20 years and there is some likelihood of paying for his life within that period.

The expected surplus left after paying off a policyholder is the profit to the company. Then there is the concept of present value—that getting Rs. 100 today has more value than getting Rs 100 one year later.

Without getting into the nitty-gritty of these concepts, one can value a group of customers of a life insurance company using this concept of embedded value. Then there is additional value from selling additional products and services to the same customer and value to the company from getting new customers.

How does a life insurer make money?

It becomes important to understand how a life insurance business makes money. In life insurance, the customer is paying the insurance company an annual premium to ensure that on his death a certain sum—the sum assured—is paid to the nominees or beneficiaries, typically, his wife or children.

The insurance company is receiving this premium from numerous other individual customers annually, say, thousands to hundreds of thousands of customers. However, only a very small fraction, typically less than 1%, of these customers, are going to die in any given year. The younger the age group, the lower is the mortality i.e., the death rate, and hence the annual premium charged is lower.

If the insurance company estimates the chances of paying out accurately and prices the annual premiums to be paid appropriately, it will be in profits over the lifetime of the policy. Thus, each policy has an embedded value which is positive if the insurance premium is priced properly.

Each insurance company has a team of experts called actuaries who are enabled with an extremely large sets of data and mathematical models to estimate the survival rates and death rates of different groups of individuals based on their age, gender, background, and medical history etc. Actuarial science is quite accurate.

LIC's IPO is at a Price-to-Embedded value (PEmV) of 1.1, compared to the other listed insurance rivals with a PEmV of 2.5 to 4.

The PEmV incorporates the value of new business the company is likely to generate in the future. With private entities likely to grow faster, they are justified in having a higher PEmV compared to LIC, but it looks likely that a 1.1 PEmV is probably understated. Further, the value of real estate is probably not accounted for in the LIC valuation. This could provide a hidden value to investors. However, when, and how it will be unlocked is clearly not known and is something which is completely beyond the control of minority investors. But it does provide a margin of safety.

If LIC starts becoming more efficient and increases its focus on pure-term and ULIP-like products, its profitability could increase. ULIP is short for Unit-Linked Insurance Plan. These and other factors could further increase its value. Also, an aggressive growth focus like private players could also increase the value of future business.

Valued at a significant discount

The expected growth of the listed private players is higher compared to LIC and hence the premium. How much should be the premium based on how much these existing private players grow faster than LIC is a question for detailed calculations and assumptions.

Prima facie, it does look like LIC is available at a significant discount compared to the listed insurers. After the IPO, too, it is likely to be at a discount to the other listed life insurance companies. It is likely to be in the top-five largest companies in India, by market capitalisation, after the listing.

Of course, this discussion cannot be taken as investment advice. One must do one's own analysis and see if it makes sense to invest in the state-owned insurer. There is no hurry. Once the company is listed, its stock will be available for ever. The scientific investor invests at the time and price of his or her choosing and is not dictated to by market forces.
986. Ramsan |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 4:27:51 PM
Discount offered for both employees & retail is
Rs 45 only
But Employee subscription still increasing 🤯though applying under retail will have better chances
I think employees are adamant to apply in employee category only whether they want allotment or not 😂🤣
985. Amit Das |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 4:27:34 PM
we maybe witnessing revival of patriotism in this ipo. foreign portfolio investors also maybe showing interest for their various pension funds. if god of ind is merciful, there maybe listing gains.

with love & regards to all chittorgarh experts & admin for their infinite guidance for the last few ipo(s) (@lokes, asoke sarkar, mravi, eagleye, everyone)

many thanks again
984. Nikhil IPO Investor |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 4:26:16 PM
I feel retailers and policy holders will be break even and there might be slight loss also... So buying this from secondary market should also be fine.. But being a slightly risky investor have still applied in the Retail category for long term from 5 family accounts...However not considering HNI due to arbitrage given to Retailers, employees and policy holders.
983. Milton |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 4:25:04 PM (200+ Posts)
I feel that FII / DII will buy on the day (with a hope that retailers will panic and sell) and subsequent days as ETFs need to add this when it gets included in the index. I know it will take some time.

feel free to add any opinion, i may be wrong too.
982. Aparichit |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:21:46 PM
Sentiments were negative for Campus IPO too, last heard GMP was Rs. 34 approx but today it has performed well.
982.1. Jetha Lal |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:26:56 PM
IPO Guru IPO Guru (1000+ Posts, 2100+ Likes)
QIB subscription was solid so they made demand for it post listing.
Who will do this for LIC?
982.2. Aparichit |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 4:05:30 PM
@jethalal yes, I do agree with you but LIC is a mega IPO. it requires huge funds to be equal to multiple of QIB subscription in Campus.

I might be wrong but it's my personal view that it is just to save interest costs by not blocking so much of funds unnecessarily as the issue is fully subscribed and hopefully everyone will get some amount of shares, but on listing day QIBs must be the first ones to accumulate the shares sold by the retailers.

we must be aware of the fact that the DIIs are saving from market fall againts the dumping of the high volume of shares from FIIs, for this also they might be requiring liquid cash, might be because of government infulence and LIC IPO will set an example in Indian Capital market and therefore the issue must be beneficial for all the stake holders.
981. Awara masiha |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:48:21 PM
Just cancelled my subscription application. This is going to another fiasco and shameful moment for this government. Cancel your application and thank me later!
981.1. Ajit Katariya |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 4:04:06 PM
Thanks for cancelling, so that others will atleast get the confirm allotment who wants to hold it for long term
980. Trump.in |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:45:25 PM
What a flop show by LIC. Again retailers have to suffer loss. I don't understand why retailers love this LIC which has always give minor to negative returns to his policy holder in the name of insurance and now again it ear money of retailers. Still people don't understand it's a big strange. Why people don't understand that it's a traditional company with no growth. If still u can withdraw your application please do it and teach government that we are not fool. Even If LIC reduce stake or give discount or bank open for ipo in holidays but truth remains truth. This subscription shows that clearly.
980.1. Awara masiha |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:50:46 PM
Because most of the retailers do not have own brains. They listen and believe what their ancestors have told them :P
979. MRavichandran |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 2:43:29 PM
IPO Guru IPO Guru (2000+ Posts, 2700+ Likes)
@Avenue et.al,
After long thinking, I am completely skipping this from HNI application. I hope it will list about 1000. (I will buy LIC for my portfolio after I consolidate my positions with other less fundamental stocks once market recovers.)

All the best for those applied.

Thanks
979.11. Vivekk |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:38:12 PM
Applied in PH for 7 Lots after QIB crossed 2.5, If not for discount would have skipped
979.12. Dukes |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:45:01 PM
Thanks MRavi Sir, I have also skipped it completely.
978. Raau |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:37:47 PM
By what time I can apply using ASBA net banking. SBI might have stopped taking applications by now
978.1. IPO Wizard |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:42:50 PM (300+ Posts)
2Pm
977. New Member To Chittorgarh |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:22:21 PM
Retail me jisne apply Kiya hain un sabko allotment mil jayega, last day me retail me apply karne ka soch raha tha but market conditions & subscription data dekh ke risky lag raha hain, flat ya discount me list hoga aisa lag raha hain
977.1. WhatsInAName |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:32:04 PM
If you're not confident about the future prospects. then do not apply just for listing gains - I personally don't think LIC will list at discount (atleast retailers and policyholders have some additional cushion there) but I am not expecting huge listing gains either. This issue is for long term investors.
977.2. GJ 😀 |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:42:12 PM
IPO Mentor IPO Mentor (1600+ Posts, 400+ Likes)
@WhatsInAName,

100% agreed.
976. IPOHNILEARN |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:41:14 PM
LIC is not intended for listing gains. it is for long term investors .
anchor book is full of Mutual Funds . more over issue size is very big.
Government left enough on the table.
it is more of Insurance + AMC story, if LIC does not perform well, whole India story will be collapsed. they have stakes in majority companies
NII/RII did a mistake in Gland pharma , now you see it is doubled.
Long term investors can hold and even add .
975. sbipo |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:35:39 PM
Top Contributor Top Contributor (400+ Posts, 100+ Likes)
@lokes,@avenue,
Is it worth blocking 14 lots money in PH for 1/2 lot for poultry less than 1% return in good scenario( return Rs 60/ assuming flat listing on blocked Rs 1,86,690/)? I'm notso bullish like Mravi and don't think it would list at 1000/
@GJ,
Why r u so gung ho man on LIC?
Thanks
975.1. GJ 😀 |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:41:09 PM
IPO Mentor IPO Mentor (1600+ Posts, 400+ Likes)
@sbipo,
I am bullish bcos,

1. Modi government
They will try their level best to make LIC list in premium otherwise Congress and other parties will make a big issue out of it.

2. Market mood recovery by the time LIC listing
Russia-Ukraine issue might resolve and can work as a mood booster for market.

3. Market is already oversold, can go a bit down from here also but not for long.
974. Vasubhai |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:35:52 PM (300+ Posts)
Applied
14 lots in PH
9 lots each in retail
973. GJ 😀 |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:35:19 PM
IPO Mentor IPO Mentor (1600+ Posts, 400+ Likes)
1 thought to share,

Most of the policyholder people are old age and might have submitted their physical applications to bank branches that will be updated by EOD.
So we might see a sudden jump in PH category by end of the day.

So, whoever applying for PH category, can consider this factor also.
972. M.K. |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:31:41 PM (300+ Posts, 200+ Likes)
Only 7 Retail Applications done.

Best of luck to all.
971. antarix |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:31:23 PM
IPO Guru IPO Guru (1100+ Posts, 800+ Likes)
Whether anybody has faith in LIC or not, but its employees and customers both have full confidence in it. More than HNI, QIB or other investors.
970. Anuiyer |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:09:40 PM
If we cancel our application before closing will the mandate get revoked?
970.1. Ram kumar I |   Link |  Bookmark | May 9, 2022 3:29:03 PM
It might take some days